Monday, July 14, 2008

Fantasy and Moral Compasses


I read this post a few days ago, on whether authors should feel obligated to reflect certain values in their fiction. This often arises in YA lit, in discussions over whether teen pregnancy or drug use or such should be portrayed, but I think it’s an interesting idea to consider in light of fantasy. Secondary-world fantasy is designed not to have any connection with Earth—and that means moral systems are not based on our own, nor (I believe) should they exactly mimic ours. Few things are more annoying than an exotic fantasy culture in which everyone holds modern twenty-first century values (except for villains, who often believe in slavery, oppression of women, and the burning of witches. Way to go with the nuances, author). I find, in fantasy novels, that my moral compass “resets”—I view events and interactions on the basis of what’s moral in this storyworld, even if it’s 180 degrees from what I believe moral in the real world. For instance, a favorite series of mine features an assassin: a sheer for-pay assassin, not one doing it out of religion or desperation or because he thinks he’s serving “the greater good” or such. He does it because he’s good at it and it pays well. This is considered perfectly fine (morally, at least, if not legally); at one point even a goddess hires him to kill someone. If I were reading a book set on contemporary Earth, following a hitman who killed innocent people, I would be very aware that this was Not Okay, and it would impact my enjoyment of the book (it’s one reason I have difficulty with a lot of non-sf/f novels; I’m religious and have certain bedrock beliefs about what’s right and wrong, and if a book’s set in my reality I tend to apply those views).

So what about you, fellow readers? Do you have trouble slipping into the worldview of a fantasy character who holds very different, and perhaps sometimes offensive, values? Are there some things that are sticking points, but others you let slide? Should authors feel obliged to retain certain basic moral positions even in works of fantasy?

~Sparky

11 comments:

Just_Me said...

The point of fantasy is to create a world unlike your own. In fantasy I'm happy to read about assassins guilds, theives, and wars. And I'm happy to read it because it is obviously fiction. It isn't reality, it isn't a suggestion of how someone should live their life, it doesn't really glorify anything.

My sticking point is when a character is so nasty that they become completelyt unsympathetic. Someone who kills for fun and splatter-punk books aren't something I'm interested in.

I have a similar sticking point with real world books. A YA book set in a modern high school where drug use is glorified or praised isn't something I want to read. I don't read much romance (aside from Jane Austen) but you can't pay me to read something about adultery. I draw the line there as unlikeable and unromantic.

So for a moral compass in fantasy... I've seen drafts of books where the MC is so far off the deep end you can't like them and I wonder about the author. But that's a far jump.

YA is a bit different since the audience is (theoretically) less mature than a grown adult.

But a book set in the real world should have some moral compass. A basic understanding that certain things like abuse, self-destruction, and hurting others is bad.

Merc said...

As long as it's fleshed out, interesting, and believable for the world or character, I can buy into any mindset and moral compass. ;) I know what I'm reading is fiction, so even stuff based in our world, I don't have a problem with.

(Like, for example, the Dexter series by Jeff Lindsay. Now, in reality I wouldn't be able to sympathize or like a serial killer--but in the realm of fiction, I love the series and like Dexter a bit too much. %-) I can accept his view of what he does in the world of the story.)

What bothers me is when a fantasy culture randomly has 21st century beliefs that make no sense and are clearly there just becuase the author wanted their own personal worldview in the story. I get annoyed.

I'd much rather see a developed cultural setting--even if it's completely against what I believe in RL-- than some lame, pseudo-21st century that feels so out of place in the fantasy world.

Like, if you have a culture that believes in human sacrifice and ritually practices it and this is PERFECTLY FINE in that world's culture, I hate to see the MC randomly think it's Evil!Wrong!Morally abhorent just becuase that's what the author thinks.

There has to be a REASON that the MC thinks this way, and you need to show me how he/she formed that belief when the rest of their culture doesn't share it. You know?

If you're going to create a culture where something you, personally, see as morally wrong, but the fantasy culture accepts it as perfectly all right, then I think you owe it to readers and the story to let the characters behave and act as they would. If they think human sacrifice is a good thing, then let them, and don't try preaching at me that they are WRONG, evil, whatever. It's a fricking story--fiction.

But I would still rather get involved in a well developed story that has opposing beliefs as me than see a fantasy that feels awkward and unbelievable becuase the author can't bear to make their precious little MC like the rest of the culture and have opposing beliefs. Ugh.

Same thing for individual characters. If they do things that they think are right (and you morally disagree), I don't want to have the author snidely telling me over the character's head that he/she is wrong/evil/morally depraved or whatever. It may be uncomfortable at times but I think as writers we owe it to readers to tell a good story that fully develops characters--even if they hold views we don't agree with.

If you really have a problem with human sacrifice, then DON'T make your MC part of a culture that practices it and thinks it's fine and normal, m'k?

~Merc

Katie said...

Er... I think it depends on the context.

A good example would be Robin Hood, Zorro, Jackaroo, and various other highwayman stories. The moral is that it's ok that these guys are thieves, because they are only stealing from the rich.

The stories probably wouldn't sell if the thieves were portrayed in a realistic sense (robbing and raping anybody ). There is also the point that the rich that are robbed in the stories are always portrayed as gluttonous jerks, instead of nice little old grandpa types. <- In this case, the story is improved by the moral.

Another example (somewhat random, but humor me) comes from a movie I watched the other night - "The Orphanage" by the guy who did Pan's Labrynth. At the end of the movie, the main character commits suicide to obtain her happy ending. Normally, I'd throw movies ending like that at the wall. But in the context, the suicide worked and I couldn't see the movie ending any other way. And I absolutely loved that movie.

That said, there are certain lines which should never be crossed, even in fantasy. Like glorifying pedofilia. :S

Inkblot said...

"My sticking point is when a character is so nasty that they become completelyt unsympathetic. Someone who kills for fun and splatter-punk books aren't something I'm interested in."
Yes.

"But I would still rather get involved in a well developed story that has opposing beliefs as me than see a fantasy that feels awkward and unbelievable becuase the author can't bear to make their precious little MC like the rest of the culture and have opposing beliefs. Ugh."
Yes.

"That said, there are certain lines which should never be crossed, even in fantasy. Like glorifying pedofilia. :S"
Yes.

:D

~Inky, the Slack Poster O:)

Spartezda said...

That said, there are certain lines which should never be crossed, even in fantasy. Like glorifying pedofilia.

See, that's the sort of thing I'm wondering here. :) Because in a number of historical (and some current) cultures girls could be married off at eleven or twelve. There's one English noblewoman I remember reading about, I think from the 1300s, who had her first child at thirteen.

What else would be considered uncrossable lines--infanticide, incest, mass abduction a la the Rape of the Sabines? Does a fantasy situation have to be more realistic and personal--happening to/around the characters we're following--for us to start caring?

Katie said...

Because in a number of historical (and some current) cultures girls could be married off at eleven or twelve.

*nods* I think I saw a story recently with an 8-9 year old who was divorcing her husband because he raped her repeatedly and physically abused her. But although she lives in a culture which doesn't exactly have a problem with child brides, the girl did have a problem with how she herself was treated.

I think it would be unnatural to write a story from a different perspective - basically showing both sides (the society and the victim) - enjoying the situation. That's why I mentioned the glorification factor.

I guess if you look at the history of marriages, people married young (teens), because they didn't live very long. And younger women were more likely to bear offspring without dying <- That's bad enough to my modern sensibilities, but it gets worse with little little kids being married (in every sense) and it being portrayed as a positive. That is a line which can't be crossed, imo.

Heather said...

What merc said. As long as it's done well without preaching or glorification I can suspend my disbelief.

Marian said...

What bothers me is when a fantasy culture randomly has 21st century beliefs that make no sense and are clearly there just becuase the author wanted their own personal worldview in the story.

Thank you! I'm very tired of feminism being shoehorned into fantasies that are supposedly taking place thousands of years ago, and I'm a staunch feminist. I love to see women being intelligent, strong and independent, kicking ass and taking names... but if this story is set in a patriarchal world and the women have led sheltered lives, how likely is it that they'll rush to put on breeches and insist that men treat them as equals?

And if they do, how likely is it that the men will be awed and aroused by their spunkiness? This is one reason I like George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire - Brienne can defeat men in combat, but that doesn't gain her any love or admiration. Unfair by modern standards? Maybe. More interesting and realistic to read about? Definitely.

Donna said...

Actually it's something I never really thought about. If I believed it in the sense of the story then it's ok within the story itself. I don't want to read an author preaching at me under the guise of fantasy but at the same time I don't think it's possible to keep every single one of our beliefs out of what we write. Even if it's just a little teeny, tiny inkling, a piece of us will still be in that story, be it in the MC, a walk on character or in a tree (huh?). It's impossible to not inject yourself into your writing, one way or another but the authors that actively keep an eye on what their writing and make their characters perform as they should in the world they're writing. It makes for better writing and a better author. Then there are the others who feel it's their job to relay a moralistic story on the differences between right and wrong because the reader obviously doesn't know. They're well, lesser in my eyes. I don't know too many people that like to be preached to.

Foolster41 said...

Enlightening post.I found this when I was research world building (Specifically writing culture.)

It's hard to put my view on my MC and world, and sometimes I admit I compromise.

For example, in one world I'm working on is fairly Greek in flavor, slavery is considered alright (debt slave/war prisoners/criminals), as is mixed-sex bathing, and there is a more lax nudity taboo. These things definitely not from my western 21st century culture but also women and men are somewhat equal (voting, options to work at least).

Actually I'm not sure it's realistic for my world, and I haven't come up with a really strong reason (besides just coming out of a strongly repressive government regime, so a large pendulum shift.)

Foolster41 said...

Er. hard NOT to. Sorry.